You Professionals...I Need Your Help!

COMMENTS

Rain said at 10:54 a.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
You are brave... I would be hiding in a corner if I saw bats like that flying around!!!
You took some good shots regardless of the "blurred bats".

Mthorne said at 10:54 a.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
great use for tabblo - i'm anticipating your answers. I have been experimenting with the manual setting on my camera as well. I've been pretty disappointed with my results. I look forward to hearing that everyone has to say.

Candice said at 11:00 a.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Hey Dee... I found this website that offers free photography courses. It's worth checking out even if you don't want to sign up... alot of good advice and tips. I'll be checking it out when I invest in my DSLR. http://www.morguefile.com/archive/classroom.php

Setu said at 11:05 a.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
I need to learn this too ! I'm sure we'll get the answers soon.

DEE-Trow said at 11:28 a.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
I questioned whether to do this tabblo or not because the pictures weren't very good. I didn't even think about other tabbloers wanting to know the same information that I want to know. This tabblo may turn out to be a great learning experience for all of us. We all know that there are some great photographers on Tabblo. Let's tap in on their knowledge! Candice, thanks for the website. I will check it out.

Siagian said at 11:34 a.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
keep up the courage to try out the manual settings DEE! i am also experimenting with mine. what i can say is try the easier modes first like shutter speed priority or aperture priority before going fully manual!!!

JeroldsSis said at 12:05 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
I'm glad you asked the question and posted the photos. I'm petriefied to use my manual function! I want too, though.

Scharn said at 12:13 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
When it comes to the manual settings I have to say "I miss my old SLR". I am looking forward to seeing answers. Thanks Dee for sharing...I too would have been freaking out with all those bats flying around!

Pkeener said at 12:42 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Hi Dee. First of all this Tabblo is cool. I am not a pro, but...Try using the shutter speed priority setting in the semi-manual mode, or most have the action or sports mode on the automatic set on the dial. Some shots will require a tripod if the light is low or at night. Here is a great website that Canon does, great general info found in all of the tutorials. Click on the pros corner or the section on photography tips.:http://www.photoworkshop.com/canon/ And the best advice is don't be afraid to shoot lots of pics and experiment in the different modes. That's one of the the best parts of the digital age...you can erase your mistakes immediately!

Hollyridger said at 4:05 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Hi Dee, in order to freeze the action of the bats you have to use a faster shutter speed so, with the camera set on manual (M) set it to at least 1/100 As soon as you do that you have to open the aperture, that is the f stop, to its lowest number, say f2.5. Now then there is yet another thing you have to do and that is raise the ISO setting to, say, 1600. Every camera is different so I cannot give you exact settings and, of course, it depends on the light. You can have fun trying out different settings and be sure to take notes.

I think it would be a lot easier if you mount your camera on a sturdy tripod, set the camera to S, short for shutter speed. Adjust the speed to at least 1/100 but the faster the setting the less blurry the bats will be so you have to experiment a bit. The camera will automatically choose an aperture setting to compensate for whatever shutter speed you choose and at the same time it will raise the ISO number. You do not want to use the flash unless you are quite close and I don't imagine you are! Good luck!

Using a high ISO may result in unwanted "noise" and using a wide open aperture may result in bats in focus and everything else out of focus but you can learn about this in another lesson!

Mthorne said at 4:24 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Noreen, good stuff. You are very kind to take the time and explain some of this. I am going to try your advice too. We need to start a group for information like this.

DEE-Trow said at 4:38 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Noreen, thank you so much for all this info. I will give it a try, that's for sure! I know that this is going to help alot of people. Do you guys think we should start a Help Needed Group? If there isn't one already. I haven't looked.

JeroldsSis said at 4:59 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
I can always use help. I'll join!

Cruising said at 5:55 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
I just joined the Tabblo group - great idea.

Cruising said at 6:00 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Suggested approach on how to get the right exposure. First some assumptions: You will need to use a shutter speed of 125 to 250 "minimum" to freeze the bats (feel free to see my sport tabblos - volleyball was in bad light)... 2nd assumption, you will probably need to use high ISO (e.g. 1250 or 1600) to get the picture. The faster lens you have the better. I think you would require an f2 or f2.8. If you are shooting at the fastest aperture (f2 or 2.8) and ISO 1600 and a shutter of 250, and you still don't get enough light... you might have no way of doing this without a flash. Just the physics of it. One last note.... many pictures that are severely under-exposed, but you can see a portion of it are recoverable. The quickest/easiest way to test... if you have Photoshop, open the picture, then press Ctrl-J (Mac is cmd J) to duplicate the layer. Then set the new layer blend mode to "screen". If you want you can press Control-J again to do the same thing again. Each time you add an identical layer in screen mode, it's as if you are increasing exposure by one full stop (EV +1). Hope this helps... and great Tabbblo

Akeke said at 6:05 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Candice advise is good. http://www.morguefile.com/archive/classroom.php seems to be a good site. Lesson 1 & 6 especially.

DEE-Trow said at 6:29 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
Wow, this is absolutely amazing. I can't believe I have gotten so much response already. I am going to really try to use manual settings. But some of the stuff I hardly understand. But I will figure it out eventually! I believe my ISO only goes to 1000, I think. Haven't had a chance to look yet. Too busy on tabblo!

Jasontengco said at 8:57 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
they said it all! :) to freeze the moment, use a very fast shutter speed (the faster the better), or if you are using a point and shoot camera, set it to sports mode, that mode has a very fast shutter speed setting :) for night shots like the ones you have above, it is very much advisable to use a tripod :)

Candieiro said at 9:22 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
I personally am not a fan of tripods, but unless you can afford an Image Stabilizer lens or better a Camera with IS built in th e body, a tripod becomes an absolute must in low light condition. The second thing is it's a good habit to give yourself time before you take pictures under challenging settings - eg low light- if you can go there an hour or two early and observe the light and if with your camera start experimenting different settings. Most cameras have apertures ranging from f5.6 to f-22 or f-32. This is really important the aperture setting will determine how much depth of field and how fast of a shutter you can use. Start at your highest aperture in this case f5.6 and meter anything you can - the view you have on the first pic - remember you are there early and the bats are not going to be still objects. take pic not under or overexposed. Let's assume that you have a reading of f-5.6 for your aperture and a shutter speed of 1000 at that time of the day. Normally the water will "freeze" not showing any sense of motion at all. Lower your aperture to a full stop which will be f.8.0 ( Note the lower the number the higher the aperture, so from low to high with full stop: f5.6, f.8.0, f11.0, f16.0, f22.0 and sometimes f32.0). Your shot was f5.6 at 1/1000 of a second now let's say you want to show more motion of the water without even thinking about it too much and gaining valuable seconds you will have proper exposures wit these settings: f8-1/500, f11-1/250, f16-1/125, f22-1/62.5.

How does it help with the bats you can now decide how fast or how slow of a shutter you want to have, given the reading of any of this conventional fstops you can prethink the look an feel of the exposure you will end up producing.

Hope this was not too overwhelming and please feel free to ask for clarifications on anything wrote above. I tried to condense a lot, and I hope it helps.

Candieiro said at 9:27 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
oh and by the way the leaves on the first picture take away the composition, they add to much business to it. try framing your shot without those in it - if possible of course.

Jillcdunn said at 9:32 p.m. on Nov 13, 2006:
First of all--I love your tabblo and think it's really cool. Secondly, wow! What great advice. I want to learn this stuff too so I think your group is a fabulous idea.Thanks to the pros for the tips. I'm not even sure what my little camera is capable of yet. But I intend to start learning since I finally found my owners manual after moving four months ago... :)

HunterProductions said at 2:41 a.m. on Nov 14, 2006:
Well everyone pretty much hit the nail on the head......With these types of shots you have to sacrifice one for the other, In order to capture the bats you will lose your background clarity (Depth of Field) because you have to open the aperture (which is the opening inside the lens that exposes the film or the digital sensor with light) to the highest setting (f2.8 on most digitals), The way that this works is the smaller the hole opening (f8.0 on most digitals) the more detail in the background and the bigger the hole (f2.8 on most digitals) the less detail in the background.
Increasing the shutter speed ( which is how long the camera leaves the shutter open to expose the film or digital sensor, eg:1/1000 is one thousandth of a second and so on ) is the method that you use to stop motion, but if you increase the shutter speed you have to open the aperture to compensate for the lower amount of light reaching the film or digital sensor therefore sacrificing depth of field. also depending on the amount of ambient light available it still might not be possible to get a great shot of the bats. The ISO setting (iso100-iso1600) is the speed or sensitivity of the film or digital sensor to light, The higher the iso setting the more grain or noise you will have in your pictures, Higher iso settings make it possible for you to capture more in a low light setting but you sacrifice image clarity in return, I personally like to shoot at ISO 64 which is equvilant to slide film and I dont like to shoot over iso 100 unless I want the grainy look. The larger you print the photos the prevailant the grain. With this knowledge in hand one of your best teachers is going to be trial and error because the ever changing conditions and the vast differences in cameras there is really no set way to capture everything that you might want to.
The beauty of digital is that you are not wasting a bunch of money on film and developing to experiment, so experiment a whole lot and try different settings and take notes of what you did and view the results and then determine if thats what you wanted to achieve or not. anytime that you want to capture a night time exposure it is best to use a tripod especially if you are using the zoom, the slightest movements can cause blur.
Hope this helps explain what the different things do and how you can apply them.
Enjoy, H.P.

DEE-Trow said at 7:45 a.m. on Nov 14, 2006:
OH MY GOSH! All of this information is fantastic! It is a little confusing and will take some time but it is so unbelievably helpful. Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to add these comments. They are going to help me, and many others, become so much more knowledgeable with the use of their cameras. Hopefully you very smart people will notice a difference in some of our pictures once we start feeling more comfortable with these settings. THANKS, THANKS, THANKS!!!! Dee

Hilah said at 10:25 a.m. on Nov 14, 2006:
The pictures are still cool. I bought a DSLR a couple months ago and I am just now trying to take pics manually. I have alot of blurred pictures. A group for new photograpers would be fun then the pros could give advise.Good pics Dee

Anjad said at 1:35 p.m. on Nov 14, 2006:
Hi, Dee. Noreen and Cruising's explanations should do it all! I'm adding this tabblo to my favorites, so I can read it over and over again... (untill it hits my brain :) )

DEE-Trow said at 5:03 p.m. on Nov 16, 2006:
I have printed out all of this information. It is on my kitchen table right now and I plan to read it over again and again and again. just like Anja. I hope it will finally sink in! Again, thanks everyone. You are helping out alot of people with all your great advice.

ElZorroTOX said at 10:26 p.m. on Nov 16, 2006:
Still nice. You should've played it cool and stated that these were meant to be that way. LOL!

DEE-Trow said at 8:36 a.m. on Nov 17, 2006:
ElZorroTOX, you are so funny!!! Thanks for saying that it is still nice.

Engelgrafik said at 9:58 a.m. on Dec 9, 2006:
Beginning with Hollyridger's and Cruising's explanations, as well as others, I can add very little that wouldn't simply be repeats, so maybe what I'll do is try to add some detail into several concepts that will help you understand the how-and-why. I'll try to summarize it. ////////////////

1. Aperture on most point-and-shoots can range from biggest f2.8 to smallest f16 maybe f32. Bigger aperture = smaller number = more light coming into the camera. Bigger aperture (f2.8) brings in more light. Smaller aperture (f16) brings in less light. The range of apertures (each one being called a "stop") that MOST people have goes a little like this, with each stop being roughly 2X smaller than the one before it: f2.0, f2.8, f3.6, f4.5, f6.7, f8, f11, f16. Now these aren't PERFECT numbers... you may have f4.7. Depends on the lens. Also, most point-and-shoots don't have a full range, they may only go from f3.6 to f8. That's a crappy lens, but that's one of the limitations of point-and-shoots you have to live with. /////////////////////////
2. Shutter Speed on most cameras ranges from 1/4000 of a second, to about 10 seconds (10"). Then there's the "B" setting which stands for "Bulb" which you only need to remember as meaning "it leaves the shutter open for however long you want". When you click down, the aperture opens and stays open, then when you release, it closes. The range of shutter speeds usually goes like this B 8" 4" 2" 1" 1/30 1/60 1/125 1/250 1/500 1/1000 1/2000 1/3000 of a second and faster and faster. Anyway, the faster your shutter speed, the more action you can capture. HOWEVER... the faster your shutter speed, the LESS LIGHT comes into your camera... obvious, right? That is why you need BIGGER apertures when you shoot faster shutter speeds. Is it kind of making sense? It's like a see saw, controlling your camera.
/////////////////////////
3. ISO ranges, on digital point and shoot cameras, usually go from 100 to about 800. You need 1600 and maybe even 3200 if you want to do ANY type of action shots at night. Higher number = more light sensitivity (or "higher film speed" with film cameras) = more noise ("grain" with film) = more contrast/less detail. The range of sensitivity levels (or "stops") goes like this: 50 100 200 400 800 1600 3200 . Notice that each number doubles. By increasing your ISO, you are giving your camera another "stop" of sensitiivity with which your camera's shutter speed and aperture can play with. The drawback is that noise/grain and increased contrast.
///////////////////
OK so there you go... the "3 Kings" in a nut-shell. So let's say your point-and-shoot camera has the biggest aperture at f3.6 and the highest ISO at 800. Well, the average person can only hold the camera still at 1/60th of second. But I can tell you that even at the highest ISO 800 and biggest aperture f3.6, you will need to keep the shutter open longer than 1/60th of a second if you're trying to shoot a night scene. The average night scene, with some street lamps, at f3.6 and ISO 800 would be probably about 2 to 4 seconds. Yes, you need a tripod for that, or something holding the camera steady (a wall, phonebooth, etc.). But wait, you also have bats flying in that scene. Wow... well, to capture a human walking, you need about 1/125 of a second. To catch them running, you need about 1/250. A bat flies faster than a human, AND it also flaps its wings even faster than the speed at which it's moving. If I had to guess, you'd need about 1/2000 of a second to capture those bats in flight. So, what did we say earlier about the night scene without the bats... it needs 2 to 4 seconds at f3.6 ISO 800? Let's say 2 seconds. OK, so you now look at how many stops away 2 seconds is from about 1/2000 of a second. It's 8 whole stops down. So you set your speed to 1/2000 and now you have to look at your ISO and Aperture and set those UP a combination that equals 8 stops. Unfortunately, it's impossible. Why? Because let's say we split up the duty between the two... ISO needs to go up 4 stops, and the Aperture needs to get bigger by 4 stops. That would mean you would need an aperture of f3.6 > f2.8 > f2.0 > f1.4... and an ISO of 800 > 1600 > 3200 > 6400. Sorry, but you're out of luck. You simply cannot get a shot with your camera of bats flying at night. HOWEVER you could always use flash and maybe you'd get them! But that's another story... :)

Engelgrafik said at 10:00 a.m. on Dec 9, 2006:
wow... sorry for the novel, didn't realize how big it would get. I put in the ///////////////// stuff so if you wanted to copy and paste it into a document, you could separate the different concepts into different paragraphs. It's much easier to read that way.

DEE-Trow said at 10:46 a.m. on Dec 9, 2006:
Thanks again Jeff for all your help. I know this took alot of time. It is very much appreciated!

Wjh1248 said at 2:26 a.m. on Jul 26, 2007:
Finally an explanation that I can understand.....Thanks for taking the bat pictures and thanks to all who commented on the adjustments.

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